Robert Richards born Monmouth 1788 (General)

by unknown, Thursday, July 19, 2012, 15:08 (1951 days ago)

Hello,
I am trying to find out more about Robert Richards, born Monmouth St John 1788 (give or take a year).
He served with the Brecon Militia and was a Chelsea Pensioner. His brother Stephen, born Monmouth 1774 (give or take a year), served with the Wiltshire Militia, and was also a Chelsea Pensioner. I have been unable to find birth records for either of them.
Robert was in Brecon by 1823, when he married Ann Davies. He was a nail maker/ironmonger.
Stephen went to Berkshire at some point, as his daughter Sarah was born in Woolhampton, Berkshire. Stephen is with his daughter in Berkshire in 1851, but with brother Robert 1861 in Brecon, where he dies in 1865. Stephen is described in the discharge militia records as a shoemaker by trade.
In hope,
Jenny

Robert Richards born Monmouth 1788

by m p griffiths @, Thursday, July 19, 2012, 17:41 (1951 days ago) @ unknown

The National Archives A2A

Item Reference: WO 97/1107/8

Scope and Content: Robert RICHARDS
born Monmouth, Monmouthshire
Served in Brecon Militia
Discharged aged 40
covering dates - 1807-1829
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal Status: Public Record
Language - English


and

Item Reference: WO 97/1107/9

Scope and Content: Stephen RICHARDS
born Monmouth, Monmouthshire
Served in Wiltshire Militia, Monmouthshire, Militia
Discharged aged 42
Covering dates: 1692-1816
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal Status: Public Record
Language: English

Robert Richards born Monmouth 1788

by rookancestrybest @, Wednesday, July 25, 2012, 15:59 (1945 days ago) @ unknown

You will find that there might be extensive records of their Chelsea days. I think I saw some records on the National Archives' website about Chelsea pensioners and there will be likely to be extensive paper records. The Imperial War Museum might also be another good place to look as well as the records for the regiment(s) in which they served.

Monmouthshire & Brecon Militia - Wiltshire Militia

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, July 28, 2012, 17:38 (1942 days ago) @ rookancestrybest

Hi Jenny,
apologies if you already knew this:

The Brecon Militia were absorbed into the Royal Monmouthshire Royal Engineers Militia based at Monmouth Castle. They still exist as part of the Terriers and have an excellent archive website see
http://www.monmouthcastlemuseum-archives.org.uk/index.php

I can't persuade the Enlistment (aka attestations) "search database" to work, but if you click "list all surnames" then "Richards" it gives 43 results. Your post is ambiguous wrt Robert's estimated birthdate, I think you mean 1788 not 1778 as per your title, please clarify ?); if so then this seems a likely match altho his given occupation of "sailor" seems odd?.



Richards, Robert
Date of attestation: 1807-12-23
Place of attestation: Llandilo
Attested by: Principle
Place of birth: Monmouth Monmouthshire
Age at enlistment: 18 years
Occupation: Sailor
Height at enlistment: 5 feet 4 inches
Physical description: Complexion fresh; eyes grey; hair brown; face round
Record of service: Corporal 26/09/1809

Suggesting born abt 1788

I thought there may be a record for Stephen altho it appears not ?.
Eitherway I hope this superb and highly informative website is of interest, contacting the Museum may be worthwhile.

Clicking the website's "Records Held Elsewhere" and searching "Richards" gives this inforamtion as already shown by MPG, so it looks like brother Stephen was indeed within the Monmouth Militia prior to the Wiltshire, presumably after moving there;

Royal Hospital Chelsea
Soldiers Service Documents: Robert Richards 1807-1829
The National Archives WO 97/1107/8

Royal Hospital Chelsea
Soldiers Service Documents: Stephen Richards 1792-1816
The National Archives WO 97/1107/9

Royal Hospital Chelsea
Soldiers Service Documents: Stephen Richards 1792-1816
The National Archives WO 97/1107/9

The Wiltshire Militia are covered within this website which appears to be still "work in progress" http://history.farmersboys.com/index.htm
The site states that it has a "Searchable index of almost 5,000 Wiltshire Militia attestation papers. These papers are at the National Archives, but have been indexed by our museum's volunteers. Almost 2,000 were born outside Wiltshire."
Again it may well be worthwhile contacting the site's historians.

Finally, I don't have an Ancestry subscription but searching their home page for Robert gives following clues, one is a private member's photo/document for his War Service record (perhaps you are this member?). Also a FreeBMD Death Index entry that may possibly be your Robert:

Surname Given Name Age District Volume Page Transcriber
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Jun 1870
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richards Robert. 80 Brecknock 11b 76 rocky

Suggesting this Robert's birth was abt 1790, and the 1870 death seems reasonable as you say Stephen lived with him until dying in 1865 in Brecon aka Brecknock.
However as FreeBMD shows this is an extremely popular name in the area so ????.

Re Ancestry I use the free-access Library version. Recently our local(Uxbridge, Middlesex) Librairies have also subscribed to FindMyPast. This site seems to carry more Military records than Ancestry, including the above mentioned Militia & Chelsea Pensioner Records, all viewable f-o-c.
I hope this is of some help.

Monmouthshire & Brecon Militia - Wiltshire Militia

by unknown, Sunday, July 29, 2012, 16:45 (1941 days ago) @ Jefff

Thanks for your reply, Jeff. Yes-I did indeed mean 1788 for Robert ( a hasty typo...)- and thanks to the others for their replys.
Yes, I do have the Chelsea Pensioner records, which describe Robert as a nailor, and giving his place of birth as Monmouth St Johns (yes, it is me at Ancestry).
What I have been unable to find is a record of his birth itself, and wondered whether any readers had access to the BMD for Monmouth St John. The LDS records do not cover the earlier dates for St Johns.
Would the National Archive records be the same as the Chelsea Pensioner ones I obtained from findmypast, do you know?
Many thanks again,
Jenny

Researching Chelsea Hospital / Pensioners Records

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, July 29, 2012, 18:40 (1941 days ago) @ unknown

Hi Jenny, so my Sailor was indeed your Nailer, of course, silly me !!(?)

Re Chelsea Hospital Records
Please understand although I have a lifelong interest in general military history, I've only been researching the actual service records of those who fought for the last 6 months or so, and all online & selftaught as I go. I have no previous experience of the Chelsea Hospital records at all except that I saw they were available on FindMyPast while researching my ancestors of the late C19th British Army, so again not your earlier period which I imagine contains less records in general.
So sorry, I do not know what the National Archives Records would show, but I do suspect they will be essentially the same as you have already found off FindMyPast as these both quote the same WO (War Office) File 97 References.

The FMP site quotes
"Many of your ancestors will have served in the army and the Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records provide rich detail about them. The Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records provide information on men pensioned out of the British Army 1760-1913. Findmypast.co.uk and The National Archives are working closely together to bring you these records.
The connection with 'Chelsea Pensioners' is that the pensions were administered through The Royal Hospital at Chelsea. The vast majority of pensioned soldiers were out-pensioners and were not residents at the hospital itself. TNA's record series number is WO97 for this set of records."

This BBC article from 2010 seems to suggest that FMP are the "preferred" partner for the TNA records, so I think it fair to assume whatever the TNA records show for an individual would, eventually, be available on FMP; but thats just my assumption.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11755938


The FMP website "blog"(whatever that is !?) states "The survival rate of documents in WO97 for men discharged to pension between 1883 and 1913 is very good; in fact Michael and Christopher Watts, in their book My Ancestor was in the British Army (Society of Genealogists 2009) describe finding a document as ‘a near certainty’."
see http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/chelsea-pensioners/
Perhaps you should contact the above FMP experts and hopefully let them help you ?

Further Googling shows that the Chelsea Pensioner records should have all been transcribed online by last September, see http://www.ramsdale.org/chelsea.htm
Also the majority of their records relate to periods later than yours, so I wouldnt expect too much detail in your case. Indeed, the Chelsea Hospital website itself states that ALL records pre 1871 are held by TNA and not the Hospital.
http://www.chelsea-pensioners.co.uk/tracing-chelsea-pensioner-ancestors

I see references in these articles to actual photographic images, rather than just transcripts, I'd be very interested please to hear what you obtained from the FMP site; perhaps this is an area where TNA is better ??
However I've just searched for Robert on the TNA site, tricky as using their new search engine, but have finally found the exact same record as quoted earlier on this thread. I cannot find a price for ordering copies, but below the "view online" option it states "This record may be provided by one of our partner websites. Searching indexes is usually free but there may be a charge for accessing information." Clicking this option directs you to the FMP site, suggesting that ALL the relevant Records are available on FMP.
You've probably already seen the TNA page which may help http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/RoyalHospitalChelsea.asp

What I have learnt in my researches is that for supposedly the exact same records relating to WW1 Soldiers the FMP site often gives more information compared to Ancestry, for example.

Finally, please see my earlier suggestions wrt contacting the various Regimental Museums/forums direct. Some regimental Museums such as the Royal Worcestershires have very grand Museums which must be funded, I guess, they ask for a £10 fee upfront before starting any research. Others can be more helpfull, eg the Glosters museum website has a forum and this can give very helpfull replies free-of-charge including accessing subscription websites on one's behalf. No harm in asking !

Good luck.

Researching Chelsea Hospital / Pensioners Records

by Roger Griffiths @, Sunday, July 29, 2012, 19:44 (1941 days ago) @ Jefff

A fascinating and most useful post Jeff. First thing that surprised me is that ex Militia were qualified as Chelsea Pensioners. Hundreds of thousands of men went through the regular army and the various militia and yeomanry system units in the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. Even the reduced number of men who 'went to pension' would not have fitted into Chelsea Hospital, the building being extant.

I do hope you continue your researches and post results on here. The subject is most important for family history for males who were 16 to 60 between 1793 to 1815 alone. Those males were required to volunteer for the regular army or join one of the militia type units. Sea adjacent counties were responsible for manning the Royal Navy. Gloucestershire was not one of them.

After 1793 the regular infantry was incresed to 130 regiments but by early 1800's was set at 104. The militia had a similar number of regiments. There was a lot else, supplimentary militia, volunteers and fencibles battalions. Records for all these are at PRO Kew.

Relevant militia regiment for FoD was the North Gloucestershire Militia.

Robert Richards born abt 1788

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, July 29, 2012, 22:15 (1941 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths

Hi again Jenny

Re your "Monmouth St John" birthplace for Robert.

When I first read your post I assumed this referred to a Parish church, ie a Church dedicated to St John, in Monmouth town itself. However looking across some Monmouthshire FH and Church sites etc I cannot find such a church, although I do find a St Mary's Church there. However I find there is a part of Monmouth town called St John's Street, which is very old indeed eg see the Location Map on this site
http://www.thecoachhousemonmouth.co.uk/index.html

Please can you clarify if this is perhaps where we're looking, I guess you maybe got this name from a Census form ???. I ask as there are some Baptisms available f-o-c online for Monmouthshire parishes but where to start looking....

Later Update: there is a St John's at Buckholt, a tiny hamlet just north of Monmouth town. However this Church wasn't built until 1889 so ??. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckholt,_Monmouthshire

I now wonder if by Monmouth we actually mean MonmouthSHIRE in general ?. If your info comes from Census forms then that's often not specific. I did lookup LDS and recall seeing Monmouth quoted as birthplace, I think it was the 1861 Census so some years after the event and perhaps not too precise ?.

As expected this list shows there are more St John's Churches in the county as a whole if not the town itself.
http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/monmouth/admin/buildings/DAC/FacultyRegisterNos.html

So, if you can please confirm your source wrt born Monmouth St John, thanks.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see from the earlier post Robert enlisted with the Brecon Militia at Llandilo in 1812.
Why was he there ?. Where is it ?.

Looking up Llandilo (actually Llandeilo) I see it's in Carmarthenshire which I think of as far West Wales, however Llandeilo is at the east of that county and on the very western edge of the Brecon Beacons national park, so making sense wrt Brecon Militia.
This map clearly shows the old counties of Wales, and Llandeilo too.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geogdata/ngw/map.htm

The Genuki site gives a highly detailed & interesting description of the town written in 1867
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/LlandeiloFawr/LlandeiloPast.html

This states that the town Church is St Teilo, built 1851, but "By far the larger proportion of the parishioners is Nonconformist, and every sect has one or more chapels in different parts of the district."
Within the district was and still is the church of St John at nearby Maesteilo, is it possible this is "our" birthplace ??.
see
http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/rb/par.php?dosommat=detail&which=595
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/LlandeiloFawr/index.html

This reminds me that when I searched Robert Richards born abt 1788 on LDS and Ancestry yesterday, most of the hits were for Welsh counties, not "English" counties such as Monmouthshire (which is of course Wales but.....).
However it must be said most of those LDS PRs were for north/mid Wales such as Montgomeryshire, altho there are a few from Carmarthenshire as follows:


1-3 of 3 results for >Name: richards, b abt 1788, Batch Number: C100721

Mary Richards
Wales, Births and Baptisms, 1541-1907
birth: 10 Jun 1777 LANEDI NEWHOUSE INDEPENDENT,​LLANEDY,​CARMARTHEN,​WALES
parents: Richard Prince

Richards
Wales, Births and Baptisms, 1541-1907
birth: 14 Nov 1779 LANEDI NEWHOUSE INDEPENDENT,​LLANEDY,​CARMARTHEN,​WALES
parents: Richard John,​ Catharine

Richards
Wales, Births and Baptisms, 1541-1907
birth: 09 Apr 1804 LANEDI NEWHOUSE INDEPENDENT,​LLANEDY,​CARMARTHEN,​WALES
parents: Richard David,​ Mary

Llanedi is midway between Llanelli & Ammanford, so a few miles from Llandeilo. ???
That said, searching Ancestry shows an awful lot of Robert Richards baptisms for abt 1788, a very common name, so ???????

I guess searching brother Stephen's birthplace in parallel will hopefully help tie things down. Hopefully those members of the forum with more skill & wisdom than me may be able to guide you more accurately. However please note that as this thread appears to be moving away from the Forest of Dean area, so it's also moving out of the scope of this website.

Good Luck !

Robert Richards born abt 1788

by unknown, Sunday, July 29, 2012, 23:00 (1941 days ago) @ Jefff

Hello again, Robert's place of birth is named as 'Monmouth St John' on the Chelsea Pensioner record for him. I think the Robert you have found is possibly a different one, given the different descriptions eg. height and occupation. He settled in Brecon as a nail maker/ironmonger, which is why I believe I have the correct CP record. Brother Stephen's place of birth is just given as Monmouth on his CP records. He was a shoe maker. Thanks, Jenny

Robert Richards born abt 1788

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, July 30, 2012, 02:59 (1941 days ago) @ unknown

Hi Jenny,
thanks for your reply, altho I'm now a little confused.
The Robert I found was the best fit wrt age from the Brecon Militia's own archives, please re-study the records of the 43 various Richards and I think you'll understand my thinking. Personally I would consider their records to be more likely to be correct & reliable than those from the Hospital/War Office.
http://www.monmouthcastlemuseum-archives.org.uk/regsearch.php?submit=go&srch_surnam...

Only two are Roberts, namely

Richards, Robert
Date of attestation: 1812-11-25
Place of attestation: Brecon
Attested by: Sergeant Parry
Place of birth: Merthyr Tydfil Glamorgan
Age at enlistment: 27 years 300 days
Occupation: Collier
Height at enlistment: 5 feet 3½ inches
Physical description: Complexion fresh; eyes hazel; hair brown; face round
Record of service: Transferred 11/12/1813 to Waggon Train

So this Robert was age nearly 28 in late 1812, so born abt 1774, so not fitting your records at all.

OR

Richards, Robert
Date of attestation: 1807-12-23
Place of attestation: Llandilo
Attested by: Principle
Place of birth: Monmouth Monmouthshire
Age at enlistment: 18 years
Occupation: Sailor
Height at enlistment: 5 feet 4 inches
Physical description: Complexion fresh; eyes grey; hair brown; face round
Record of service: Corporal 26/09/1809

So this Robert was age 18 in late 1807, hence born abt 1788 which fits perfectly.

Personally I'm happy to think that "sailor" should read "nailer" and this is either a transcription error (I've seen much worse eg "ship steward" when the census form clearly reads "shepherd" !) or perhaps he was just misheard when asked during his enlistment.
Also, this was his occupation when asked in 1807 as a young man, its not impossible he was a sailor then, albeit briefly perhaps. In later years when he was a Pensioner it's possible that he had actually become a nailer by then, maybe since living with his shoemaker brother ?

It's a shame these archives don't include Stephen, altho I see there are no records for his much earlier enlistment period. I suspect this is because Robert was enlisted at the start of the long & bloody Peninsular (aka Napoleonic) Wars, a period of heightened & continuous Army recruitment until the wars' end at Waterloo in 1815.


You mention his height being in error, I wonder why ?. If you think this seems too short compared to nowadays, please note that due to poor diet etc people were all much shorter then. The two Roberts above are equally short, as indeed are most of the 43 Richards' in the Militia lists above; the tallest is only 5'9" and most abt 5'6". If you study British Army uniforms in museums etc they appear very small even from years later upto WW1. My father is of South Wales stock, he was abt 5'6" like all his siblings & parents, most men his age in my Forest home town appear this height too and used to think me very tall at 6' (due to my English mother's very lanky line).


My search of TNA archives gave the following which I thought correlated with your FMP findings ?

ROBERT RICHARDS
Born MONMOUTH, Monmouthshire
Served in Brecon Militia
Discharged aged 40
Covering dates 1807-1829
Held by The National Archives, Kew

ie Robert was enlisted in 1807 and discharged in 1829, aged 40; giving his birth abt 1789 and age 18 on enlisting. This all fits your records very nicely.


STEPHEN RICHARDS
Born MONMOUTH, Monmouthshire
Served in Wiltshire Militia; Monmouthshire Militia
Discharged aged 42
Covering dates 1792-1816
Held by The National Archives, Kew

ie Stephen was enlisted in 1792 and discharged in 1816, aged 42; giving his birth abt 1774 and age 18 on enlisting.

Do the CP records you have give more detail than this, or indeed are they different ?? As I asked earlier, does the data you obtained from the FMP site give more/different information than this ??? As I said earlier while trying my best to help you I'm trying to learn more too, every little helps.

In my opinion the quoted birthplaces are only to be considered as guides; as with Census information this is often incorrect, either due to a careless approach by the official recording the information(they may have not asked but just assumed, or they may not have asked properly eg "where are you from?" rather than "where were you born?"); or by the enlisting soldier not knowing or being unsure or unwilling to say with accuracy. Such errors are common, I have seen one of my ancestors apparently vary in birthplace thro' the Census's from "Lydbrook Glos England" in 1901, back to "Not Known" in 1881 and then "Aberdare Glamorgan Wales" in 1861 !! The replies given were never checked or corellated.


I hope this makes more sense now, sorry if I wasn't clear before.

Robert Richards born abt 1788

by unknown, Monday, July 30, 2012, 10:45 (1941 days ago) @ Jefff

Thank you again.
From the CP records I have obtained:
'Corporal Robert Richards born in the parish of St Johns in or near the town of Monmouth in the county of Monmouth was enlisted for the aforesaid regiment (Brecon) on 23 day of December 1807'. He served until 24 June 1829. Description 5 foot 7 and a half inches (so differing from the other possible record you found), brown hair, fair complexion, nailor.
So St Johns could possibily be another location near Monmouth?

Stephen Richards was a sergeant major, 'born in the parish of Monmouth' (so presumably Monmouth St Mary?). 5 foot 8 and a half inches, dark brown hair, hazel eyes, dark complexion, shoemaker. He served with the Monmouth & Brecon militia 22 December 1792-31 August 1809, the with the First Wilts Local Militia 7th September 1809-18 May 1816.

The census records posted after your posting are of the correct family.

Many thanks, everyone!
Jenny

Robert Richards born abt 1788

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, July 30, 2012, 16:02 (1940 days ago) @ unknown

Good afternoon Slowhands, nice to speak again, hope you're well?. Very sorry to read about David, thanks for the updates re the moving Service at Ruardean; please accept my belated yet sincere condolences to all his family and friends and thanks for his exceptional efforts for the Forest and Foresters.

Thanks for posting the Census Records for this thread, very helpful as ever. Yes I read and mentioned St John's Street/area in Monmouth, so this is clearly relevant, perhaps this was a local Parish before St Mary's Church ?. That said, St Mary's has been in situ and important for centuries before our men were there, so ??.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_Church_of_St_Mary,_Monmouth


Hi again Jenny, thanks so much for reproducing the CP records you obtained from FindMyPast, very helpfull to me in general as well as this query. So it seems you do get quite a lot of good detail from the site which is great, I find it hard to imagine you'll get more from The National Archives.
Without wishing to knock in any way your ancestors, given they were "just" two "lowly" footsoldiers within hundreds of thousands enlisted during these few years, I think such detail of records is incredible. I'm still certain the Militia Records I found for Robert Richards are your man, so many similarities especially with the attestaion date being identical, 23rd December 1807. Yes theres a few inches difference in height, but were the quoted numbers taken at the same stage in his 20 years service ?. I also know that very often these numbers were just visual estimates, not precise measurements, sometimes in boots and sometimes not. Sometimes "optimistic" heights were recorded to satisfy local Regimental requirements. Indeed, I visited a major London Hospital last month and was routinely measured barefeet by a trained nurse using a wallfitted rule. Despite my having back problems causing a distinct stoop, according to that nurse I am now officially 1.5" taller than at any other time in my life, including similar measurements many times in the last 2 years, so ???.

On that basis I still think it relevant that Robert enlisted at Llandeilo, rather than perhaps Brecon or Monmouth, this may be of use when searching for him on the 1841 Census and before that. As I was hoping for per my post yesterday, you're now in Goodhands with Slowhands.

Robert RICHARDS born Monmouth 1788

by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Monday, July 30, 2012, 09:18 (1941 days ago) @ unknown

Hello,
I am trying to find out more about Robert Richards, born Monmouth St John 1788 (give or take a year).
He served with the Brecon Militia and was a Chelsea Pensioner. His brother Stephen, born Monmouth 1774 (give or take a year), served with the Wiltshire Militia, and was also a Chelsea Pensioner. I have been unable to find birth records for either of them.
Robert was in Brecon by 1823, when he married Ann Davies. He was a nail maker/ironmonger.
Stephen went to Berkshire at some point, as his daughter Sarah was born in Woolhampton, Berkshire. Stephen is with his daughter in Berkshire in 1851, but with brother Robert 1861 in Brecon, where he dies in 1865. Stephen is described in the discharge militia records as a shoemaker by trade.
In hope,
Jenny

The 1851 census helps by putting forward a "St Mary's" Monmouth rather than St Johns.
Some have put forward a St Johns Monastery as having existed in Monmouth, very little supporting evidence has been offered. However St Mary's is the main church / parish in Monmouth.


1861 Brecon St Mary, Breconshire
Robert Richards abt 1790 Monmouth, Monmouthshire, Wales Head Brecon St Mary, Breconshire ironmonger
M A Richards abt 1825 Brecon, Breconshire, Wales Daughter Brecon St Mary, Breconshire
E Richards abt 1829 Brecon, Breconshire, Wales Daughter Brecon St Mary, Breconshire
Eliza Richards abt 1832 Brecon, Breconshire, Wales Daughter Brecon St Mary, Breconshire
Anne Richards abt 1841 Brecon, Breconshire, Wales Daughter Brecon St Mary, Breconshire
Stephen Richards abt 1774 Monmouth, Monmouthshire, Wales Brother Brecon St Mary, Breconshire Pensioner

1851 Brecon St Mary, Breconshire
Robert Richards 62 Chelsea Pensioner and Ironmonger St Mary's monmouth
Amie Richards 60
Mary Anne Richards 27
Eliza Richards 20
Robert Richards 18
Anne Richards 13


1851
Thomas Alles abt 1794 Warfield, Berkshire, England Head Kintbury, Berkshire
Sarah Alles abt 1799 Woolhampton, Berkshire, England Wife Kintbury, Berkshire
Joseph Alles abt 1836 Marlborough, Wiltshire, England Son Kintbury, Berkshire
Elizabeth Alles abt 1839 Milford, Berkshire, England Daughter Kintbury, Berkshire
Daniel Alles abt 1841 Milford, Berkshire, England Son Kintbury, Berkshire
Stephen Richards abt 1774 Monmouth, Wales Father-in-law Kintbury, Berkshire


1841
Stephen Richard abt 1776 Welford, Berkshire
Sarah Richard abt 1776 Berkshire, England Welford, Berkshire


1841 Watton ( might be Hatton) St Mary's parish Brecon
Robert Richason abt 1791 St John the Evangelist, Breconshire ironmonger
Ann Richason abt 1791 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Maria Richason abt 1826 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Elizabeth Richason abt 1828 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Eliza Richason abt 1831 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Robert Richason abt 1832 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Ann Richason abt 1838 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

Robert RICHARDS born Breconshire 1789

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Monday, July 30, 2012, 17:57 (1940 days ago) @ slowhands

Once again Slowhands comesup trumps with the Census', thanks !.

I did wonder if Robert might be recorded as a Richardson, there are some in the Brecon Militia Lists, but no Roberts so... I've just spent some weeks researching my own Glos Richardsons, surprised to find they originated in Sussex...

Anyhow;
I've tried but failed to find more about "Hatton" ??
In 1841 Robert is reported as being within St John the Evangelist Brecon.
I presume they have ticked to say they are from that County; the earliest Census's did specifically ask where born.

St John's is actually the Cathedral Church of Brecon, originally a Priory.
http://history.powys.org.uk/history/common/stjohns1.html

For more general info see
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/Brecon/StJohn/index.html

This states the Parish Records are held by Powys Archives & FindMyPast.
http://www.powys.gov.uk/uploads/media/BrecPR_bi.pdf
So hopefully Jenny with your subscription you may find his Baptism, altho it may well be difficult given the common name. Knowing the Welsh patryonic surname system I strongly suspect Robert's father's first name will be Richard.

Searching LDS again I find the following which MAY possibly be him ?, I cannot understand why I didnt find it yesterday...

"Wales, Births and Baptisms, 1541-1907,"
Name: Robert Richards
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 17 May 1789
Baptism/Christening Place: LLANGAMMARCH,BRECON,WALES
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Richd Ingram
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name:
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C08133-1
System Origin: Wales-ODM
Source Film Number: 104476

Llangammarch is north of Brecon towards Builth Wells.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/Llangamarch/index.html


Finally, re Robert's reported enlistment town of Llandeilo for the Brecon Militia, I see I was in error yesterday. There is another Llandeilo, much nearer to Brecon town just 10 miles away, see.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/Llandeilorfan/Gaz1868.html

I think this suggests the brothers were actually more Brecon men than Monmouth. However as I cannot find a baptism for Stephen then ??... as said earlier ideally need to find Baptisms for both to be confident of their parents. Sorry cannot be more useful.

As an outside possibility for Stephen's Baptism, I find this on LDS.

"Wales, Births and Baptisms, 1541-1907,"
Name: Stephen Richards
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 Jan 1775
Baptism/Christening Place: LLANDINAM,MONTGOMERY,WALES
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Richard Stephens
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C09059-1
System Origin: Wales-ODM
Source Film Number: 104585


http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MGY/Llandinam/Gaz1868.html

Llandinam is again north from Brecon & Builth Wells up into the high hills. However it is on the Severn and near the Wye, which itself flows south into Builth Wells, so it is possible for Stephen & Robert's parents to have migrated slowly southwards towards Brecon and then Monmouth, perhaps using the Wye, with their boys being born during that migration. Supposition of course, but not unreasonable I think.

That said hopefully Slowhands et al will use their better skills & resources to solve this once and for all.

The Watton, Brecon

by slowhands, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Monday, July 30, 2012, 23:33 (1940 days ago) @ slowhands

1841 Watton ( looked like Hatton) St Mary's parish Brecon
Robert Richason abt 1791 St John the Evangelist, Breconshire ironmonger
Ann Richason abt 1791 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Maria Richason abt 1826 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Elizabeth Richason abt 1828 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Eliza Richason abt 1831 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Robert Richason abt 1832 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire
Ann Richason abt 1838 Breconshire, Wales St John the Evangelist, Breconshire


http://history.powys.org.uk/school1/brecon/watton.shtml

and neatly links to Brecon Barracks


The Royal Welsh (Brecon) Museum
The Barracks,
The Watton,
Brecon,
LD3 7EB

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

Robert Richards

by unknown, Wednesday, August 01, 2012, 14:47 (1938 days ago) @ slowhands

Thank you, Slowhands & Jeff,
I think the migration theory is plausible.
I have checked the parish records on FMP- no trace on any BMDs even with name alternatives. Have also searched non-conformist-no trace. But then, people did not have to register events in those days.
The only tantalising trace of Stephen is a marriage in Monmouth to a Sarah Emery 1799
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/monmouth/gr-y.htm
and he had a daughter Sarah, born 1799. Would militia men have their families in barracks with them as they travelled?
I think this is yet another of my Welsh genealogical conundrums that will remain unresolved-but thank you for all your help.
If either would like copies of the CP records, please send me a message with your email, and I will email these on.
Jenny

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